Harley: "Trying is Hard, We're Just Gonna Keep Making Boomer Bikes"

"TheJWT" (thejwt) 05/07/2020 at 12:17 • Filed to: None

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I understand that given the current world outlook Harley is looking to make some money somewhere, but can’t help but think their new “Rewire” corporate strategy is them waving the white ( and old ) flag and saying making good stuff is much too difficult and off-brand for them. Here are a few of my favorite excerpts-

Return focus to the strength of brand and company, starting with dealers, customers, stronghold products and committed employees globally.

Re-evaluate strategies to reach new riders and build ridership.

Narrow focus and invest in the markets, products and customer segments that offer the most profit and potential. This includes building on Harley-Davidson’s strong position in the U.S.

Establish a simplified market coverage model and take cost out of the process.

Continue to be guided by the voice of customers and dealers to optimize value and profit delivery.

More Info Here

Frankly I don’t have a horse in this race; nothing short of them remaking the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! can make me consider ever buying one, and though it would be cool to have an American company making competitive products (and being profitable doing so), watching Harley flounder around endlessly is pretty satisfying too.

jimz > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 12:25

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This is what happens when you’re a public company and your largest shareholders have “Asset Management” in their names. It’s not about “trying is hard,” it about a bunch of goddamned hedge fund shitheads calling the shots. You can’t try at all when those fucking sharks demand money now; clearly Levatich got broomed because these vermin thought he was “wasting” money trying to grow their outreach . if I was king, the first people up against the firing squads would be private equity and asset management/hedge fund principals.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 12:25

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One problem is that I, a non rider, would see 0% difference in my life if Harley ceased to exist.

That, and the aire of douchiness or fak e masculinity that Harleys give off is seriously out of style these days.

TheJWT > jimz 05/07/2020 at 12:31

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I don’t disagree with that at all. It’s a bunch of sharks who want money today instead of a company in 10 years.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 05/07/2020 at 12:37

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I feel like my life would improve ever so slightly to hear less of these on the road.

No offense intended for those who enjoy Harleys, but it seems like their primary function is to make a lot of noise and draw the ire of anyone within a mile. Transportation just happens to be a by product of the engine burning fuel.

DipodomysDeserti > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 12:38

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The only people that I know who own Harleys are millenials, and their bikes are all pre ‘90s.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 05/07/2020 at 12:41

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Very much in style for a particular demographic

jimz > DipodomysDeserti 05/07/2020 at 12:52

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Gen X here, and I has one (Street Glide.)  

Future next gen S2000 owner > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 12:53

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Short term corporate focus on profits is a cancer. Ford, the original, had it right. Companies should balance profits, quality, and employment.

jimz > Future next gen S2000 owner 05/07/2020 at 12:57

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that ended when Jack “Maximize Shareholder Value” Welch was canonized into sainthood and became the inspiration for an army of empty-suit disciples.  It should tell you something that “Minimum Bob” Nardelli is among the worshipers of St. Jack. 

ranwhenparked > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 12:57

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This is pretty much what Cadillac did in the ‘80s:

“Boomers didn’t like the Cimarron for some reason, well, screw them, their parents are still around and they  love us, so we’ll just keep selling to them forever - more vinyl roofs! , more wire basket wheel covers! , button tufted upholstery for everyone! We’ll be unstoppable, Lexus will crash and burn, and BMW will run home crying to West Germany ”

Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:02

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PR type-age   is one thing, actually doing what’s written is another.

IMO creating the LiveWire instead of focusing on a entry 400cc   thumper was a mistake . Also, they need to junk the paper weight   Street line up and do a proper job on the mid cc bike offerings.

Among many many other things.

Future next gen S2000 owner > jimz 05/07/2020 at 13:05

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I’ll blame the Dodge brothers. They are the genesis of it all.

AestheticsInMotion > DipodomysDeserti 05/07/2020 at 13:08

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My street-bike loving friend just got a job as a Harley salesman (his bartending gig is uh... Not doing so hot right now) and I was shocked to hear him heap praise over those massive Goldwing competitors of all things. He’s about 25, and now I kind of want to test out a 1000lb “bike” for curiosities sake...

DipodomysDeserti > AestheticsInMotion 05/07/2020 at 13:11

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My buds mostly have old sportsters that they’ve chopped up. Hit up the Chop cult instagram for some examples.

loki03xlh > DipodomysDeserti 05/07/2020 at 13:14

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Gen X here. I’ll stick with my 15 year old Sporty I bought new. Nothing in their current lineup appeals to me. If I were to get another, it wouldn’t be new. A 2-7 year old garage queen for 4 0 cent s on the dollar compared to new is good enough for me.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:18

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I’m going to say here what I said on the FP article - Harley has spent more years “in trouble” than succeeding in the past 50 years. And every time they get bailed out or saved, they immediately abandon every “new and cool” thing they were working on to make more boomer bait. At what point do we stop and realize they will never change until they actually are allowed to fail?

fintail > AestheticsInMotion 05/07/2020 at 13:23

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Just drive a Civic, it’ll be easier. Roughly the same weight and width.

Probably 2/3s I see on the road in Bellevue are boomers (saw a not-small guy one one last week smoking a cigar, no shit) and most of the rest appear to be Xoomers or maybe older millennials with instagram tattoos and self-made jobs at their dad’s contracting company.

AestheticsInMotion > jimz 05/07/2020 at 13:26

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I seem to recall your bike being gorgeous 

UserNotFound > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:27

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Sounds like the new plan is “bleed it dry for as long as we can and then sell off whatever’s left ”. That’s basically business 101 these days so sure, why not.

DipodomysDeserti > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 05/07/2020 at 13:33

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I’m more concerned about people forming an opinion about others based on television shows.

I have a couple of Hondas I’ve customized myself, and have take them to various local bike meets and shop BBQs. The hardcore Harley guys love them, as they know I built them myself. There’s much more camaraderie at bike meet ups than any C&C I’ve been to, and no one feels the need to measure each other’s dicks.

None of us give a shit about each other’s masculinity or what’s in style.

DipodomysDeserti > loki03xlh 05/07/2020 at 13:34

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I want to add a Harley to the stable, but it’ll probably be a pre ‘80s bike. I have a friend with a right foot shifter bike.

nermal > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:36

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Better headline: BRAND WITH REBELLIOUS IMAGE TRIES ACTUALLY REBELLING, GETS SCARED, GOES BACK TO DOING SAME OLD CRAP LIKE A BUNCHA WEENIES.

What they really need is an ADV bike, and some cheap little bikes. The best selling bikes for the Japanese brands are all the 300/400s. Ducati sells more Scramblers than anything else. So on and so forth. Bring in young people on your cheap little bikes, get them sold on your brand, then sell them a bunch more crap over the rest of their riding career. It’s what all of the other successful brands are doing, but HD isn’t.

The biggest glimmer of hope they have is the Stacyc, but they major problem there is that they don’t have anything for kids that outgrow them at 8 until they reach 40 .

dogisbadob > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:39

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Look what they did to Buell, the only serious American motorcycle company

Doesn’t someone on here have a Buell? I think Miss Mercedes

Harley probably wants to crush those VR1000 bikes tho

I don’t really care about motorcycles that much, but it would still be nice to see a real American motorcycle that’s actually competitive

Supposedly, their CEO doesn’t even ride motorcycles or have a motorcycle license/endorsement

The best thing Harleys are good for is if your car has a hole in the muffler but you can’t hear it over the Harley, so it disguises/covers up your loud exhaust :p

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:43

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On one hand, yeah they need to update and innovate but on the other no other motorcycle hits quite as hard as a fleet of Harleys rumbling by. It’s the kind of visceral sound  you feel in your bones.

Tapas > jimz 05/07/2020 at 13:45

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I don’t agree with the decisions the hedge funds make either. They deal with short term business profitability, and have little knowledge about the industry or customers their company functions in.

I can’t believe I’m actually defending hedge funds, but we wouldn’t have Harley or many financially weak brands around without them.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Exage03040 @ opposite-lock.com 05/07/2020 at 13:48

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I don’t think the livewire in itself is dumb if you’re trying to get into the commuter urban bike market, but has Harley tried to do Much with that market?

During the week I see dual sports and naked bikes and see  Harleys on the weekends

Snuze: Needs another Swede > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:51

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I think dropping Buell was a huge mistake. I also loved the V-rod, but am apparently in the minority there. I also like the new Street series, but it feels like a half hearted attempt. Same with the LiveWire - it’s cool, it came from left field, and really had the potential to bring Harley sharply back into focus, but I don’t know where it’s gone.

If I were in charge, here’s how I’d save Harley:

Learn the product line up - I really have no idea what it is

Simplify the “legacy” product line up - Sportster, Road King, and maybe like 3 models inbetween. That’s it. That’s all you need for old air cooled iron.

Re-branding. I used to ride sport bikes and had a fair amount of experience with Harley people, and most were pretty cool. Don’t let the outliers define the brand. Take it back. Anyone familiar with the “you meet the nicest people on a Honda” campaign?

As part of this re-branding, lean into LiveWire. This is Harley’s big chance to be a leader moving into EVs. Don’t let it slip away.

A second part to re-branding - r ound out the bottom end. Bring out something akin to the “ Buell Blast. ” I think there’s a fairly sizeable group who want’s a “ Harley” without wanting a big, heavy ass iron Harley. Figure out the Street lineup, too.

If these things work, then start looking to other markets. Start close to home - choppers, bobbers, scramblers. A gain, minimize number of models, but do one or two of those and do them well. Then move to a little more “off-brand” stuff like cafe racers, adventure bikes or sporty nakeds or something.

Eventually, down the line, bring out new engines, maybe V-4s or I-4s. Mess with the formula. Maybe one day do a sport bike.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 13:53

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I don’t think it will be long until they’re no longer a motorcycle manufacturer, but just a parts and accessories manufacturer and “lifestyle brand”.

jimz > AestheticsInMotion 05/07/2020 at 14:00

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honestly, 90% of the hate for them is just from reputation; some of it deserved. yes, they could stand to all ditch the Harley tax and be a couple grand cheaper across the board. But they’re not “low tech” like people think they are. if I took the fairing, seat, and side covers off of my bike you might be surprised at all of the modules and electronics hiding behind them, and most of them would be tagged by suppliers a car guy would recognize (Delphi, Continental, Yazaki , Harman, etc.)

the other thing that they do that almost no one else does is let you fit the damn bike to your ass. They offer- I kid you not- 24 different seats for the touring range- most of which you can actually try out at a dealer , and the aftermarket options are immense. Honda only offers one seat option for the Gold Wing, but the aftermarket has good support for it. Good luck if you want a different seat for a BMW K1600. And believe me, an uncomfortable seat will turn you off of any bike in short order.

for me, if I’m picking a bike to spend hours on, it’s probably a Harley touring or a Gold Wing.  

TheJWT > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent 05/07/2020 at 14:04

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That’s true, whether that’s a good thing or not is a matter of opinion. I personally do not want to feel anything in my bones when I’m sitting in the park trying to enjoy my lunch.

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > DipodomysDeserti 05/07/2020 at 14:09

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Fair point, and I do have genuine friends who ride Harleys and they’re  great people.

I guess my comment was more about Harley fighting an uphill battle to gain more market share with their current public reputaion.

Grindintosecond > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 14:11

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New and younger buyers? There is no way to get younger and new buyers to fall in love with something that sounds like a basket of atomic farts. Yamaha’s tlr1000, Honda’s RC5 1, Any Ducati V-twin, Actually, ANY twin out there, to a new younger buyer, sounds way better than a Harley. The only thing a present day Harley engine has is a vintage presence., and if any younger buyer is in to that then that’s great. Harley will make that motor in an old style bike for as long as they have buyers....for as long as it’s feasable.

“But that’s our signature sound!”

Bankruptcy is soon your new signature sound.

But they need a different motor if they want even more younger buyers. Motus made that v-4, and it was expensive, and they are no longer around as a result. It was based on an LS but shrunk and re-engineered at great expense.

Just cut an LS. Make it a V-twin. There. 125hp, 1 25 tq. Amazing in a cafe cruiser. There you go. And it will sound incredible.

Harley has type cast itself into one character role. The Screech of bikes. The Steve Urkel of cruiser. They need their second breakout moment to become a Pulp Fiction Travolta. Relevant again.They must abandon their old act

TheJWT > nermal 05/07/2020 at 14:12

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I think it’s a shame (or just short-sightedness) that H arley went all-in on the Big Rattly V-Twin Cruiser segment when historically they’re made some really interesting bikes. Board track racers, GP bikes, dirtbikes, and even sup erbikes...

Now the name is synonymous with a very particular kind of bike and any deviation from that is going to be met with skepticism. 

jimz > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 05/07/2020 at 14:15

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their uphill battle is less about reputation and mostly because they only really make one kind of bike (expensive heavy cruiser) which means they might as well not exist for a lot of people.  

Thisismydisplayname > loki03xlh 05/07/2020 at 14:17

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No doubt, it’s like buying a trailer, why buy new when they depreciate so quickly.

jimz > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2020 at 14:18

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Simplify the “legacy” product line up - Sportster, Road King, and may be like 3 models inbetween. That’s it. That’s all you need for old air cooled iron.

by eliminating the Street Glide you just canceled their best selling model. Might want to focus on your first bullet point a bit more ;)

jimz > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 05/07/2020 at 14:19

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the only way they would have that kind of freedom is if they took the company private again.  Otherwise they exist to “maximize shareholder value.”

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > jimz 05/07/2020 at 14:31

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Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 14:33

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Meanwhile, from the other american motorcycle company

fuck yeah.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 14:42

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Buell.

#Stillsaltyfrom2009

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > jimz 05/07/2020 at 14:45

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H aving worked for a company that was bought/destroyed by private equity, I’ll help line them up.

Mercedes Streeter > gin-san - shitpost specialist 05/07/2020 at 14:49

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In fairness, stock Harleys are actually pretty quiet. At least, not much louder than any other v-twin.

But nuking the mufflers is like the first mod for every Harley owner. Hell, even my Buell has straight pipes.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > jimz 05/07/2020 at 14:54

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I assume that has more to due with bullet point #1 than purposefully cancelling it

Learn the product line up - I really have no idea what it is

I agree with his overall direction though

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/07/2020 at 14:54

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T oo bad those’re so expensive, because it is attractive. T he FTR line is almost like what Buell was... though the Rally really needs a little more dirt cred for my taste. Also, did I mention the price?

TheJWT > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/07/2020 at 14:55

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Not my kinda bike but still 100x more desirable than a showroom full of Harleys

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jimz 05/07/2020 at 14:56

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Street Glide falls in between Sporty and RK, right? It could be one of the 3 that’s kept.

I admittedly haven’t paid attention to their product lineup in a long, long time. I just recall when I did look, it felt confusing, so I just opened up their website and you know what, I’m still confused. What’s the difference between a Street Glide, a Road Glide, a Road King, the Special versions, the Limited versions, and the CVO versions? It’s all the same base bike, right? Is it just colors? Why is a CVO Street Glide double the price of the base version?

jimz > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2020 at 14:58

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there’s this in other regions:

but that’s a rebadge of some Chinese thing sold as a Benelli elsewhere.  if they built it in the US they could probably shift a few though

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jimz 05/07/2020 at 15:13

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That’s pretty cool looking! I’d be interested in that.

Also, in looking at their website for the first time in years, I determined that I l ike the Street R od, maybe the Roadster, and the FXDR114.

jimz > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2020 at 15:16

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Street Glide falls in between Sporty and RK, right? It could be one of the 3 that’s kept.

basically you should think of it as they have 3 main models. Sportster, Softail, and Touring. The various “models” are more or less like trim levels on a car, with different farkle. All Touring bikes have the same frame and powertrain; the differences are in fairings and storage. Road King has no fairing (just a windshield) while the Street Glide adds the “batwing” (fork mounted) fairing while the Road Glide has the “sharknose” (frame mounted) fairing. the “Limited/ Ultra” versions add the top trunk with full passenger back/armrests.

Why is a CVO Street Glide double the price of the base version?

because people will pay for the custom paint job and added farkle.

jimz > Mercedes Streeter 05/07/2020 at 15:57

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I wonder how many people who bitch about bikes with loud(er) exhausts have exhaust mods on their cars....

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 15:58

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racious v twin with capable performance and a lot of ground clearance is the kinda shit I want. I wish it didn’t cost so much.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jimz 05/07/2020 at 16:03

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Thank you for that breakdown, that makes more sense to me. 

TheJWT > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/07/2020 at 16:04

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If they put a fairing on it and painted it garish 90s colors I’d be a bit more interested

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 16:58

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Fairing? Loud colors? Vtwin?

gmctavish needs more space > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 17:11

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I actually know quite a few young people who are into, and own Harleys. However, they own old Harley frames, that have have mostly or completely built into their own thing. They’ve all spent plenty on them, but they’re still cheaper than buying a new Harley. I think one of them did buy a 2 year old Road King or one of the other huge full dressers, but realized it was insane to spend new car money on a bike, sold it, and went back to a 70s Harley instead.

I think Harley would get good results from having a true heritage line, selling versions of k nuckleheads and p anheads, but with FI and disc brakes. What Triumph and Royal Enfield are doing, sort of. Or maybe I’m wrong, it’s entirely possible the people who would want an old bike lookalike would rather just stick with an old bike.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Mercedes Streeter 05/07/2020 at 17:15

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Knowing that it’s done on purpose by the owner doesn’t help.

It’s more of a personal annoyance than anything else, but I guess riders get a kick out of it. I would never be the kind of person who wants to ban this stuff, so I’m fine with just bitching about it.

It's just jarring when I'm on a walk and suddenly it sounds like I'm in the scene in Band of Brothers where the C47s are flying into Normandy. Fucking hell. 

gin-san - shitpost specialist > jimz 05/07/2020 at 17:16

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My Kia barely has an engine, so it ain't me. 

jimz > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2020 at 18:06

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yeah. the best description I’ve seen of Harley Davidson is that they’re basically Taco Bell. they have like 6 basic ingredients which they throw together in 100 different ways. for ex (and because I want to post my bike) this is my Street Glide:

if you took the front fairing off of the bars and moved the speedo to the tank bib, it’d be a Road King:

if you instead changed the front fairing to the frame mounted one, it’d be a Road Glide:

if you kept the fork mounted fairing and instead added the top case and a few other little shiny bits and added water cooling, it’d be an Ultra Limited.

and so on. there’s other minor differences between the setups, but they’re all on the same frame. Why they don’t just start with what is the Road King and let you add the bits you want, I don’t know, but it probably wouldn’t save them any money or effort.

same for the Softails.  The FXDR, Fat Bob, Sport Glide, Heritage, Breakout, etc. are all on the Softail chassis, they just have different bolt-ons to give them different characteristics.   it’s kind of like GM in the 1950s;  back then they had one car platform (the “B-body”) and all the divisions used it.  if you got a Chevy, it had a Chevy engine and body.  Pontiac?  You got a Pontiac engine and body on the same platform.  

TheJWT > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/07/2020 at 18:30

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That’s more like it.

How difficult would it be to get the 900 Superlight fairing and tail on there?

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 21:50

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depends on who you ask.. I believe OEM it had some metal supports udner that tail section but it could be done in a reversi ble fashion probably

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 22:22

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Those five bullet points are well summarized by the title.

They can be simplified even further. When failing, Quintuple-down on the same thing.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly, expecting different results.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > TheJWT 05/07/2020 at 23:05

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Superlight or SS/CR is one of the most gorgeous bikes ever, and an object lesson on half fairings.

Although this one probably suits me a bit more now, ergonomically.

Harley Davidson has nothing on this, as far as I am concerned, and they show that they aren’t even going to try to.

shop-teacher > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/08/2020 at 06:04

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I went to my local Indian dealer to drool over one of those (can’t afford to actually buy it), and all I found was a showroom full of big expensive cruisers :/

Oh, and Polaris Slingshots. Ewww.

shop-teacher > ranwhenparked 05/08/2020 at 06:13

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Boomers were the ones who ditched Cadillac for the Germans and the Japanese. It was their parents that Cadillac clung to, most of whole are dead or at least not driving anymore.

Your point stands though. This is exactly what Cadillac did in the 80's.

ranwhenparked > shop-teacher 05/08/2020 at 08:04

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Isnt that what I said? The Cimarron was their attempt to attract Boomers, failed miserably, so they doubled down on their strengths.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/08/2020 at 08:43

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Jesus...I just looked at their website and yea, it’s hard to make sense of what the differences are between many of them.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jimz 05/08/2020 at 08:55

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Wow! Your bike is gorgeous!!!

I do feel like Harley could be prime for a sort of semi-distributed manufacturing type of operation. They assemble the rolling chassis and ship them to dealers, and dealers stock or order kits of parts to fit out the bike.

I walk into the dealership, look at a few floor models, maybe take some test rides, decide I want a Road King, but in blue instead of red like the floor one, the dealer says okay, we’ll have it ready later to day, or tomorrow, or whatever. They roll out a Glide chassis, grab a “Road King - Blue” box, and attach the tank, fenders, and hard bags.

This could also streamline the customizing process - lets says I love the Road King, but I really want the top case/seat for Mrs. Snuze. They could have those on hand, or yank one from an Ultra (though this may not work since Ultras have chrome trim) and fit it, and then the dealer could procure a new one on the back end.  I’ve never been a fan of the idea of buying a complete thing only to replace half the stuff on it.  

shop-teacher > ranwhenparked 05/08/2020 at 09:07

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Sorry, I misread it. You are correct!

jimz > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/08/2020 at 09:22

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This could also streamline the customizing process - lets says I love the Road King, but I really want the top cas e/seat for Mrs. Snuze. They could have those on hand,

you actually can do that (add a tour pak, in “Harley-speak.”) it just costs a good bit.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/08/2020 at 09:27

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I know, right? JimZ broke it down a few posts below. It makes sense, sort of? They only make 3* bikes - Sportster, Soft-tail, and Glide. But all the different models are just permutations of the same bike. It would be like if a car company gave every trim level a different name - instead of a Camaro LS, LT, SS, Z/28, and ZL1 they made the Camaro, Jaguar, Shark, Tornado, and Armageddon, and marketed them all differently. \

So in a way I get it, but it still seems needlessly complicated. Also, one of the things about bikes, especially Harleys, is customization. And I’m a practical person, I think, so I’ve never understood why someone would buy a perfectly good thing, and then replace half its parts to make what you want. Why couldn’t you just get the thing you want in the first place?

I feel like Harley is in a prime position to do that - have dealerships with a bunch of these “different” bikes for people to look at, maybe test ride, and then in the back keep a bunch of each frame and the kits with the different parts combos. But allow mixing and matching, so say I want a Road King (naked glide) but I want the top case seat back off an Ultra Glide. And the floor model was blue but I want red. Boom, I park a deal with the sales guy, and the tech goes in the back, grabs a Glide frame, and grabs a box of red fenders and tanks, and then grabs my top case, etc. And they put the finishing bits on the bike there at the shop. It would allow way more customization, and I feel like it streams the supply chain for Harley and it’s dealers.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jimz 05/08/2020 at 09:32

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Well, I guess if people keep paying it, then why not?

It just seems like they could streamline the logistics train AND give people the flexibility to customize, that would save Harley some money, which they could in turn pass some of those savings to customers.

But I’m an engineer, I don’t do marketing or accounting.  

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/08/2020 at 09:33

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The naming things is confusing as all hell lol. I assume they do it so it looks like they build more than just 3 bikes with a bunch of different tacked on bits. Harley is probably the best situated manufacturer to do things more like a car company. List the 3 models, then let people choose a trim OR build their own bike.

I like the dealer idea, but it would force dealers to have a TON of inventory.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > TheJWT 05/08/2020 at 09:50

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Maybe it is time... for Harley to start sun setting like the majority of its customers. The world does not need Harley Davidson.

Also not surprising as it seemed any “modernization ” efforts were going to be half-assed.  I’m sure they had some really talented, really frustrated people working on them but also have no doubt the company didn’t give those people the resources they needed to do much of anything.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/08/2020 at 09:58

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I think you’re right about the naming thing - it’s confusing but it does make them look like they make more models than they actually do.

The thing about car companies, at least in my experience, is they are getting further and further away from the customization thing - everything now is an option package, and alot of them include mutually exclusive bits, or require you to take other stuff . There’s 2 features I would have liked to have on our Terrain (cooled front seats, birds-eye parking cameras) , but both came in separate packages that were $2,000 each and had other stuff we didn’t care about AND either package REQUIRED taking the Panoramic sunroof option that was like another $2500. So $6500 to get 2 things I wanted and take like 6 things I didn’t want/need .

The dealer thing would need to be fleshed out a bit more . I haven’t set foot in a Harley dealer in a while, but my experience in the past was most of them had like 10-20 bikes scattered around an entire acre of clothing and other lifestyle products. My concept really doesn’t change that, they only need to keep 10 bikes there for viewing, test riding, etc. The problem would be storage space in the back to hold all the bits. I think the solution then is to keep common configurations on hand (50 of everything in black, 10 in red, 10 in blue, everything else is special order). Also, in my example above about making a Road King with an Ultra top case, I have no idea how common Top Cases are ordered. But maybe if it’s uncommon that’s a special order thing. That way they could put my bike together with the more common Road King bits and then I bring it back a week later when my Top Case arrives and they add it.

Of course this is all moot, I suggested this to JimZ and apparently they already do something kind of like this. And they charge a premium for it. And people  pay it, and going back to OPs point, and a lot of discussion on here about how Harley is now run by corporate raiders - if people are paying lots of money for something, why stop?  And if it’s working and making you at least some money, why streamline?  I don’t know, I’m just an engineer, not a logistician, accountant, or marketer.  

Ermahgerd! > nermal 05/08/2020 at 11:44

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They’re working on an ADV bike already, but you are so right. T hey definitely need a cheaper scrambler too.

jimz > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 05/08/2020 at 13:03

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Harley Davidson has nothing on this, as far as I am c oncerned, and they show that they aren’t even going to try to.

tbf last year they sold almost twice as many bikes outside of the US as Ducati sold worldwide, so they probably don’t feel they have to.

jimz > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 05/08/2020 at 13:05

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I’ve always hated those ‘80s bikes with rectangular headlights; it looks like a toenail. 

Jim Spanfeller > shop-teacher 05/08/2020 at 13:37

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I like the idea of the Polaris Slingshot, but the styling looks like the designer saw a crumpled-up paper ball and though, “THAT . That’s what the new three-wheeler’s styling should look like!”

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > jimz 05/08/2020 at 22:29

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Yet Ducati is solvent, and Harley is in deep financial trouble with no diversity or alternative marketshare… and most people who don’t already buy Harleys, WON’T buy Harleys.

jimz > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 05/09/2020 at 05:43

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Yet Ducati is solvent,

you have ZERO way of knowing that since VW doesn’t report Ducati’s financials, they lump them in with Audi and Lamborghini.

You’d think that if Ducati was such a moneymaker they’d want people to know, yet they’d rather hide them instead...  nevermind how many times over the past few years were there rumors of VW wanting to spin or sell off Ducati to someone else.

and last I checked (you can find their earnings statements on their website, so you’ve no excuse for posting bad info) H-D is still making money, just not as much as last year. It’s not “good” but saying they’re in “deep financial trouble” while Ducati is “solvent” (based on nothing but your own wishes) is like those idiots on the internet who are wailing how “Ford is about to go bankrupt again” because they lost money in a quarter where nobody is shipping anything while not uttering a peep about FCA posting almost as big a loss.